Character Transition and Living Heroes

[peroxidepirate]

I have some loosely connected thoughts about Doctor Who, the different Doctors (especially Ten and Eleven), and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. This is partly my response to a recent post by the brilliant and wonderful green_maia , but too disconnected to be a comment on that post. So.


Thing One

I'm trying to sort out the Doctor's emotional/psychological evolution. I haven't seen much Classic Who, but having heard the nutshell version of what happened just prior to New Who, I get where Nine came from: the reluctance to feel, the focus on doing, moving ever forward; the latent pain that's there if he does (rarely) look back; the affection/annoyance with everything human. And I get how Nine turned into Ten -- I get it too much, maybe. It's what happens when the shell cracks, and everything starts spilling out -- vindictive, affectionate, jealous, protective, cocky, self-detesting, nostalgic; pick an emotional response and it's there, somewhere, in an indiscriminate jumble that I sometimes hate but I understand more often than not. He's still saving the world, because that's what he does -- but at the same time, he's inward-focused and needy and very damaged.

What I can't figure out is how Ten could ever become Eleven. They're nothing alike. Eleven is arrogant and overly sure of himself, yes, but he's also capable of focusing only on the hopes and fears and pain of others (which might not be all that healthy, either, come to think of it) -- as I described him a little while back, he's "avuncular and slightly distant and just helping [his] friends deal with their angst." And I don't get the sense that he's doing it to avoid his own issues (as Nine did, a bit); I get the sense that his issues honestly have been resolved. But I don't see how. I don't see when. I cannot fathom someone like Ten turning into someone like Eleven in so short a time. (I wonder if that's part of why it's easy to see Eleven as old? Because it would should take a long time for a Ten to turn into an Eleven?)

As I said in a comment elsewhere, I need to do a mainline rewatch of S4.5 and S5 to see if I get a different perspective watching it all at once. I'm pretty much stumped on this, but I'm still trying to reconcile the two. If nothing else, River Song seems to believe they're essentially the same man, which implies to me that Steven Moffat sees it that way, too. I wonder what's going on in his head?



Thing Two

This part is a little more directly borrowed from green_maia , who has made the astute assessment that "The End of Time" makes more sense as the Doctor's death than as the Tenth Doctor's regeneration. From a narrative standpoint, I can see that. Just like I can see that "The Gift" would have been a good (final) death for Buffy, and a fantastic ending to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The transition between the Tenth Doctor and the Eleventh Doctor doesn't make any sense to me (see above). Seasons 6 and 7 of BtVS are full of tangles and loose ends and shoddy writing. For the good of the shows, and the good of the stories, you can definitely make a case that they both should have ended (sooner).

I don't care. I wasn't watching for the stories, anyway. I wasn't watching for the big picture. I was watching for the characters. It's the characters who become real to me. I'm still mourning Tara. I'm still mourning Ianto. I'm still hurting over what happened to Donna, and I still miss Cordy and Anya and Doyle and Owen and Tosh. I can go back and rewatch the episodes they were in, but knowing they're not alive anymore takes a lot of the shine off. It makes them less real. It hurts. I know none of it's real, but that doesn't change my feelings.

So when it comes to the heroes of my two most-obsessed-over shows? I want them to live. 

I need to know The Doctor is alive (no matter how much he's changed).

I need to know Buffy is alive (even if I'm steering clear of her newer incarnations).

I'm not ready to lose my fictional heroes, even if it would be better for the story. I don't want a Who-niverse without The Doctor. I want a world where Buffy lives to become a cantankerous old woman. My real heroes, from Kurt Cobain to Susan Butcher, are mortal -- tragically mortal. I like knowing my fictional heroes live on.

Comments

[sahiya.livejournal.com]

So here's how I think of the transition from Ten to Eleven. In "The End of Time," when Ten dies, it is with one last big melodramatic, overwrought, overly emotional BANG (because that is how RTD rolls, and I think green_maia was 100% right when she says RTD wanted to write the Doctor's real death and couldn't).

And then he wakes up as Eleven - AND IT'S FINE. Better than fine, really. Sure, the TARDIS is crashing, but it's not like that hasn't happened before, and then he meets this awesome little Scottish girl, and really, things are fine. And the Doctor goes, "Holy crap on a cracker, I was mad. Let's not do that again!"

My theory - which is going to come up in something I'm currently writing for posting sometime between now and Christmas - is that one of the things each Doctor has to do is reconcile himself with the man he used to be. This isn't always easy. I think Ten had it easier, because he had Rose helping him bridge the gap. Nine was just fucked in the head - too fucked, perhaps, to do any of the usual post-regenerative psychological work that I think has to happen. But you can sort of see it in some of the old multi-Doctor serials. The current Doctor is not always thrilled with his previous reincarnation. In fact, he usually finds his former selves unbelievably annoying.

But I think Eleven has it harder than most. Eleven's defining characteristic for me is his kindness. Whereas Nine and Ten were self-destructive and enveloped in their own angst, each in his different way, Eleven is focused outward (this is part of why he's so hard to write, I think). But this means, I think, that he has a really hard time fathoming some of Ten's crueler moments. I think there are things he looks back on (i.e. Ten's actions in "Family of Blood") and goes, "WHY? Why did I do that?" And there are moments in S5 that I think are about Eleven coming to terms with Ten - that, in fact, is how I read "Vincent and the Doctor." If you listen to the things van Gogh says in that episode, many of them could come straight from Ten's mouth. And the compassion that Eleven displays toward van Gogh stands in, in many ways, for the compassion he's trying to find for Ten.

This is all very speculative, of course, and at least 80% from the fic I've been writing. But that is how I make the Ten => Eleven transition work in my head.

[peroxidepirate.livejournal.com]

he wakes up as Eleven - AND IT'S FINE. ... one of the things each Doctor has to do is reconcile himself with the man he used to be.

I like that. I can see Nine and Ten both having a hard time reconciling, in different ways, and lashing out. Whereas by the time the Doctor regenerates as Eleven, he's reached a place of peace with himself -- I think that much is there even if you want to view Ten's demise as the Doctor's death -- and that makes the break from his past self more... abrupt, maybe? More complete?

He's not entirely a new character, but he's not entirely the same man, either.

I'll have to rewatch "Vincent and the Doctor" with an eye toward parallels between Vincent and Ten.

[sahiya.livejournal.com]

An abrupt change, btw, is not unprecedented. Four and Five are drastically different people, and I'm not entirely sure how we get from one to the other. The same with Five and Six. I've not seen much of Six, but I know he kicks things off by almost strangling his companion, which is something placid-to-the-point-of-boring Five would never do.

[peroxidepirate.livejournal.com]

Ah, this is the POV I miss by not knowing Classic Who. Interesting.

[elisi]

Here via maia's LJ and had to comment...

And then he wakes up as Eleven - AND IT'S FINE. Better than fine, really. Sure, the TARDIS is crashing, but it's not like that hasn't happened before, and then he meets this awesome little Scottish girl, and really, things are fine. And the Doctor goes, "Holy crap on a cracker, I was mad. Let's not do that again!"
THIS! SO MUCH! *laughs* It's funny, because I can definitely see the big gap between Ten and Eleven in terms of character, and yet for... oh the last year of Ten's tenure I kept wanting to tell him to stop running away! He was clearly in so much pain, and holding on caused him yet more pain, and I was *sure* that he'd be so much better once he got dying over with. And I was right. :)

My theory - which is going to come up in something I'm currently writing for posting sometime between now and Christmas - is that one of the things each Doctor has to do is reconcile himself with the man he used to be. This isn't always easy.
Ooooh, I shall look out for that fic! I did something similar myself with the fic that my icon goes with, because I wanted Eleven to be able to talk to Ten, and find closure. And TenToo was the closest I could get.

And there are moments in S5 that I think are about Eleven coming to terms with Ten - that, in fact, is how I read "Vincent and the Doctor." If you listen to the things van Gogh says in that episode, many of them could come straight from Ten's mouth. And the compassion that Eleven displays toward van Gogh stands in, in many ways, for the compassion he's trying to find for Ten.
*nods a lot a lot* And I see Ten as in many ways similarly broken - suicidal one moment and euphoric the next. Plus, I quite simply love Eleven for reaching out to Vincent the way he does, for being able to focus so much on someone else. Although that incredible scene in the bedroom where Vincent yells at him to go away ('I know how it ends - and it doesn't end well!') is so very much Eleven seeing his past self before him, and it's interesting that it's at that point that he decides to leave Vincent alone... because he *knows* the truth in Vincent's words, having been there himself. He's a different man now, but he still understands.

Aaaand, I've rambled. Thank you for your wonderful insights! :)

[peroxidepirate.livejournal.com]

I was *sure* that he'd be so much better once he got dying over with. And I was right. :)

LOL. Totally.

... I guess that's a key difference between timelords and humans.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

elisi linked me to this from my own most recent post. Hello!

It never occurred to me that he saw himself in Vincent, but I did notice him becoming kinder after Amy lost Rory at the end of CB. I did read his comment at the end of V&TD about adding to the pile of good things as the closest we're likely to get to him verbalising any kind of perspective on his previous incarnation. Then, in "The Lodger", two things stand out. One, he doesn't try nearly as hard as Ten did to rub the edges of his weirdness and integrate as a human - it's very much, take me or leave me. (To reference "Fear Her", Eleven would have gone right ahead and stuck his fingers in the jam). But at the same time, he really cares about the humans around him. This is developed further in BB, particularly that beautiful, touching scene with little Amy when he says goodbye.

Interesting contrast - when Ten was faced with a daughter it was all about his own conflicted, angsty feelings, whereas Eleven, in a much more final and desperate situation, cared about Amelia in a truly fatherly way. He totally accepted the end of his existence and seemed to feel it was a worthwhile outcome if she got her parents back.

I'm very much looking forward to seeing if this changes Amy's character in the next series. I really hope so!

[elisi]

One, he doesn't try nearly as hard as Ten did to rub the edges of his weirdness and integrate as a human - it's very much, take me or leave me. (To reference "Fear Her", Eleven would have gone right ahead and stuck his fingers in the jam). But at the same time, he really cares about the humans around him.
You know, this - and your very clever post - made me think of something. If we put aside Nine as just very damaged and quite simply struggling to survive with what he did, then with Ten we get an attempt at moving on from having destroyed his own race (and as we now know, he killed them because they were going to destroy the universe - that's gotta make you feel bad about yourself, on top of the angst) - and looking outside of himself for an answer... So, where better than humanity? Rose, especially, embodies what he wants to be, and wishes he could be, so he tries to emulate humanity because he has huge, huge issues with himself. Of course this experiment fails spectacularly, so in many ways Eleven can be seen as a clean cut when looked at in this light (much like sahiya's theory): Seeing the world with new eyes he understands his folly and resolves to be just himself [whatever that may be] and not worry about the rest.

Interesting contrast - when Ten was faced with a daughter it was all about his own conflicted, angsty feelings, whereas Eleven, in a much more final and desperate situation, cared about Amelia in a truly fatherly way. He totally accepted the end of his existence and seemed to feel it was a worthwhile outcome if she got her parents back.
I feel that there might be interesting things to conclude from this, but I'm too tired right now...

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Very well put. Interesting that when Eleven (in Big Bang) is going backwards through his time stream he decides to jump ship rather than face going back further and turning into Ten. No sense of wanting to have his time over again, see Rose one more time, or anything like that.

I would like to see Eleven do a bit of psychological inner work but unless it's precipitated by finding out who River really is in the next series, I don't think it's going to happen. "Space Gandalf" is exactly how he sees himself - an opaque, all-knowing mage figure.

It may be a function of RTD's atheism that he saw God as being deeply screwed up and unhappy. With Eleven, OTOH, it's more a case of, "I'm God, I'm not human so don't worry about trying to figure me out, just roll with it."

[sahiya.livejournal.com]

Yes . . . but it's kind of BS, because he has people who do sort of have him figured out. Amy doesn't have him 100% figured out, but she does have his number in many ways, and Rory occasionally says things about him that are very acute. And then, of course, there's River, who knows so much about him that he finds it deeply annoying. So while he would like to think of himself as "Space Gandalf," I think it's sort of ridiculous.

[oseri]

I know that I will forget to comment unless I leave one now, though I haven't thought this through properly. You raise some excellent points, but I would have hated DW to end with Ten - he became far too self-indulgent. I think Ten was altogether too human, too emotional, and Eleven feels like a withdrawal from that.

[peroxidepirate.livejournal.com]

I think Ten was altogether too human, too emotional, and Eleven feels like a withdrawal from that.

Oh yes, I definitely think so.

:)

[elisi]

I get the sense that his issues honestly have been resolved. But I don't see how. I don't see when. I cannot fathom someone like Ten turning into someone like Eleven in so short a time.
I wrote a post once that might help you. The third point, specifically. I love both Ten and Eleven, but there is a huge gap, and I've often said that I see very, very little of Ten in Eleven, apart from the effects of having been Ten - like he is now a reaction against what he was. (Like Two and Three?)

It hurts. I know none of it's real, but that doesn't change my feelings.
Oh Lord, do I know how you feel. With the Buffy verse, it's turning to nostalgia (which is nice, although in a way I feel that I've lost something), but the Torchwood deaths (Ianto particularly) still hurt so much.

ETA: Followed you from maia's LJ btw. :)

[peroxidepirate.livejournal.com]

*waves* Thanks for reading & commenting.

With the Buffy verse, it's turning to nostalgia (which is nice, although in a way I feel that I've lost something), but the Torchwood deaths (Ianto particularly) still hurt so much.

Yeah. Possibly watching all of both shows (all four shows, counting spinoffs) in under two years has something to do with my distress over this, too. None of it is nostalgia for me, yet.

Oh. Which might be part of why I'm finding myself a little reluctant to do very much reading or watching of new things -- especially things that come highly recommended -- lately. Hmm.

[elisi]

Possibly watching all of both shows (all four shows, counting spinoffs) in under two years has something to do with my distress over this, too.
OMG. I'm astonished that you're not a complete emotional wreck, to be honest. ALL of RTD and Joss (well, the important bits imho *g*) in two years - that's brave! I'd be taking a break too.

[peroxidepirate.livejournal.com]

LOL, thanks!

[skipthedemon.livejournal.com]

I came her via elisi Pretty must all I have to say on this topic I said here here (http://skipthedemon.livejournal.com/132116.html). It's a long essay, FYI. It took me a while to piece the transition together, too, but I think "Amy's Choice" and "Vincent and the Doctor" are the big clues. For me, at least.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

I've also popped over via a link from a link - and have to say that I'm sitting here nodding vigorously at this -

What I can't figure out is how Ten could ever become Eleven.

Being very harsh about it, I don't think Moffat has gone into this with any intention of picking up those loose ends. I enjoyed S5, but I tend to think of it almost as a different show - which I know kinda defeats the object of the whole regeneration thing. It's clear that Moff has a very different vision of the character and he doesn't seem all that interested in reconciling what Ten became with his vision for Eleven.

I've bemoaned the fact that I've not been able to "connect" with Eleven emotionally in the same way I connected with Ten - and it took me a while but I've mostly made my peace with that.

I will, however, be jumping up and down with delight if we get anything about Ten becoming Eleven when we finally discover who River really is.

[farsh-nuke.livejournal.com]

I think 10 became 11 in that moment in Journey's end when Davros shows him his true self.

It's not warnings about knocking 4 times that sets off the countdown to 10's demise, it's that cold realization that that the Doctor is just as alien and capable evil as the daleks with their reality bomb or the timelords with the plot to destroy time. Ever since the Doctor's black soul is revealed, he runs and hides from his destiny to take up the timelord mantel again. Celebrating Christmas and easter and saving lives despite the cost to the timeline, even having an affair with the queen after the ood call him back.

The Doctor runs and hides from his obligations and the person he really is, like a rebellious child resistant to go to bed for the knowledge that when he wakes up the next day he won't remember the reasons behind his actions.

In short from that moment of revelation the Doctor knows he'll be brought crashing back to gallifrey, or gallifrey back to he, with a large bump. He stretches that elastic as far as it will go but he knows it'll bring him back and while he fights until the bitter end, there's no pretence that he'll carry on fighting once he's there.

The Doctor has gallifrey, the Master and the earth back, if only for a few moments, but instead of trying to be human enough to offer the timelords a lifeline and help them reintegrate with society he distances himself like a timelord and saves the day like the Doctor. That he dies so soon after, that his fighting is so finally stilled, only serves to prove for me that it's davros's revelation is where the transistion lies, yes he goes barmy in between those situations but from that point he would always have become eleven.