Will of the Empress and lesbian stereotypes

[peroxidepirate]

I've been pondering different things about Will of the Empress, since it just came up on Goldenlake's book club, and I just finished listening to it as an audio book. I wasn't active in Pierce fandom when it was published (I'd pretty much dropped offline after getting a condo and my first dog), but I do remember making my way back to the Dancing Dove to see what other people thought of the book after I'd read it.

Then, as now, there were criticisms I certainly agree with: the infighting and angst is overblown; it's kind of tragic that nobody seems to be interested in romancing Tris (who's smarter than you, "plump," and wears glasses -- yeeeeeeah); the contract-marriage-as-rape-metaphor is sometimes awkward.

But there's one criticism I absolutely don't agree with, and it occurs to me that I've never entirely said my piece on it. So.

It was known before the book was published that one of the four main characters was going to come out of the closet, but not which one. It turned out to be Daja, the smith-mage, who has a B-plot romance with a court lady named Rizu -- after which they go their separate ways, because neither is willing to leave her friends and turn her life upside down for the other. It's sad but sweet, as a first summer romance should be IMO.

The thing I disagree with is the criticism against Pierce for making Daja gay, specifically, on the grounds that she's playing into the butch lesbian stereotype.

I do see where that's coming from. Certainly many lesbians are some level of traditionally feminine: women who like pretty things, and care about their clothes, and engage in domestic pursuits, and (even in warlike sword-and-sorcery worlds) don't think of themselves as fighters. Women like Rizu, and Lalasa, and Tian, and Lark. And that's okay.

But you know what? Some of us aren't. Some lesbians are women who wear trousers as a default, and work in male-dominated professions, and feel more comfortable doing what the guys are doing (bowing instead of curtsying, wielding a staff or a sword, whatever). Women like Daja. And that's okay, too.

Think of all the women Pierce writes who take charge and fight and wear trousers and set out to break down gender barriers and pretty much do everything the men around them do. I'm actually having trouble with this because they're all strong and they all take charge, and gender is such a slippery thing sometimes; I don't want to imply that strong=non-feminine, so apologies to anyone who disagrees with my list. I'll look at the major female characters who are cast as notably less feminine than the women around them: Kel, Alanna, Buri, Aniki, and Daja. Kel and Alanna are almost certainly straight: they have relationships with men; we're shown plenty from their viewpoints, and there's no indication of same-sex attraction at all. Buri and Aniki are presumed straight: we know they have relationships with men, but don't really get inside their heads; they could be bisexual, certainly, but to the uncritical eye, they're presented as straight. And Daja is gay: she has a relationship with a woman, and self-identifies as nisamohi, or lesbian.

Taken as a body of work, I don't see how Pierce's books perpetuate a stereotype of lesbians as masculine women. And I would love to be able to go back in time and give my 15-year-old self a copy of Will of the Empress, as a little reminder that it's okay to be queer and "not a girly girl" at the same time.

(Yeah, this is kind of personal for me, and I think that's okay. I'm not saying my sexual orientation gives me any particular authority on this subject, but I can't deny it has a major effect on both how I feel about this and how strongly I feel about it. Comments/discussion/debate are welcome -- I think it's fascinating when people see things differently! -- but I'm pretty sure I won't be changing my mind on this.)

Comments

[q-sama.livejournal.com]

You know, when I first talked to Pierce about WotE having a gay character, it was before it was released. I asked how she was going to avoid stereotypes, and we discussed how each of them would play up to some form of queer cliche - so she said she's just going with how the characters were speaking to her, and leave it at that. Stereotypes are put in place because we try to categorize and classify - they exist in all sorts of forms that cross over.

The don't-pick-Daja-because-she's-a-butch-stereotype is an argument I never fully got into, though I understood where friends (and some lesbian friends, at that) were coming from based on their perspectives. I was more bothered with the fact that Daja was given the leftover romance story. (While the others were prized in Namorn for their abilities and status, Daja was prized because of romance. From one perspective, that's beautiful. From another, it's annoying.) The other thing that worried me is that Daja was already the least loved of the four in the fandom - most of the fandom was wrapped in the annoying Sandry/Briar v. Tris/Briar debate (duh! OT4, people!), and Daja was left in the cold. And for an occasionally boy-crazy fandom that's just begun to mature in the years since this book was published, I was worried that Daja would continue to be the overlooked, written-off character. People who love her seem to love her down to the core of her being. People who don't seem to forget about her. And I didn't want the gay person to be the forgotten one. (also, I *reallyreallyreally* wanted Sandry to be the lesbian in the group because she wouldn't hesitate to get in people's faces about it if they objected. :P)

So, uh... there's my two cents. I'm sure I have more thoughts on it, but I can't seem to focus right now.

[peroxidepirate.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I didn't realize you'd actually talked to Pierce about it!! That's neat, and the "just go with how the characters are speaking" makes me more convinced she made the right choice in this.

You know, I never thought of the romance story as "leftover," but I can see it now that you mention it. And there easily could have been some mention of all the cool magical!metalwork she could do for Berenene.

I did notice Daja is the only one who doesn't have a book of her own at least in the planning stages (I feel like WotE belongs to Sandry a little more than the other three, and of course other books are planned for Briar and Tris), which leaves me with the same kind of skin-crawling feeling as plump nerdy Tris not getting any romance at all. OTOH, though, I have so much respect for Pierce so obviously trying to keep this a diverse group of characters and give them all the respect they deserve! I can always see another angle, but I'm more content with the results than not. I've always thought she has very good editors for the Circle books.

"The other thing that worried me is that Daja was already the least loved of the four in the fandom - most of the fandom was wrapped in the annoying Sandry/Briar v. Tris/Briar debate (duh! OT4, people!), and Daja was left in the cold."

Interesting... right before SMACKDOWN teams were finalized, I was feeling sorry that Tris was getting a little left out between all the Sandry/Daja and Sandry/Briar enthusiasm. Funny how things change over time.


"People who love her seem to love her down to the core of her being. People who don't seem to forget about her."

This is something I'm actually okay with. Maybe I'm just used to liking the characters and ships a lot of people don't bother with? Well, you say there's more maturity and more diversity of opinion in the fandom than there was a few years ago, so I imagine that's part of it.


"(also, I *reallyreallyreally* wanted Sandry to be the lesbian in the group because she wouldn't hesitate to get in people's faces about it if they objected. :P)"

Oh yes, that would be its own kind of beautiful!

Eventually I'm going to get around to writing actual romance for SMACKDOWN, and maybe I'll go there. ;)

[q-sama.livejournal.com]

I did notice Daja is the only one who doesn't have a book of her own at least in the planning stages (I feel like WotE belongs to Sandry a little more than the other three, and of course other books are planned for Briar and Tris), which leaves me with the same kind of skin-crawling feeling as plump nerdy Tris not getting any romance at all.

Yes, THIS. Hell, Rosethorn and Evvy got a book before Daja. :(

Interesting... right before SMACKDOWN teams were finalized, I was feeling sorry that Tris was getting a little left out between all the Sandry/Daja and Sandry/Briar enthusiasm.

LOL! Me too!! I think Sandry fans are more vocal. This is why I usually try to think about the "unusual" pairings within the OT4 - Daja/Tris, Daja/Briar and Tris/Sandry.

Maybe I'm just used to liking the characters and ships a lot of people don't bother with? Well, you say there's more maturity and more diversity of opinion in the fandom than there was a few years ago, so I imagine that's part of it.

There's something I'm trying to tap into in response and I can't quite grasp it completely, but let me try. (Ach, this is when thinking in words would be nice, rather than images or feelings.) My favorite thing about fandom and writing is that usually in the Pierce fandom, you can write about any minor little character and *someone* will latch on to it - Like your Erdogun/Vedris fic, for example. Or when people mention a fact about someone that gets taken up by a few others as their "personal canon". Overall, the fandom seems very open to suggestion, for better or for worse. When it comes to Daja, though, I feel like she's completely overlooked unless it's something in conjunction with another character (like the recent bout of Sandry/Daja love - which seems to be more about Sandry than Daja). I don't know if this is because Daja comes to us more fully formed than other characters, or if it's because no one cares. I hope it's the former - but I still feel a little knee-jerk reaction to rejection when people gush over other Circle characters. (which might be hypocritical, since she's not my obvious favorite - she's rather tied for second, depending on my mood.)

[opalgirl28.livejournal.com]

You know the "Daja as the lesbian reinforces butch stereotypes" thing?

Doesn't Rizu counter that? Between the two of them they represent both sides. It didn't irk me. I did, like Lisa said, kind of want Sandry to be the lesbian, but it seems to work for Daja. It makes sense.

Also, the lack of Tris romance? I *think* it's Briar (it's one of the other three for sure) who notes that you'd have to be trying *reaaaaaaaallllllly* hard to get Tris's attention. And then she probably wouldn't even think of you in the right way. Maybe she's just not interested in romantic drama at the moment? It might not be neglect--it could just be the character stamping her foot and insisting on staying single. Sometimes, fictional people are ornery like that.

[peroxidepirate.livejournal.com]

"Doesn't Rizu counter that? Between the two of them they represent both sides."

Yes, of course! Though that dynamic has its own set of problems, too. Er, not that their relationship specifically does, necessarily... but every fictional couple that could be construed as butch/femme also seems to face criticism for that. In the end, I fall on the side of, "Any representation is good representation, especially if they don't end up evil and/or dead."

*shrugs* Now I can't recall exactly where I read the criticism I'm railing against here anyway, which is slightly embarrassing. Eh.

And I don't think Tris needed a love story, necessarily. I don't think she would have been interested just then. But I'd like to have seen someone try and then run up against her (possibly deliberate) obliviousness. A throwaway conversation between her would-be suitor and one of her friends would satisfy me. (I'm thinking I have to fic this somehow, obviously.)

[littlemissgriff.livejournal.com]

Well, and Daja's hardly the insulting ham-fisted Neanderthal stereotype people elbow themselves and laugh about in the hallways. She can take care of herself, has a career that makes her very fit, and prefers active hobbies. I've never considered Daja particularly 'Butch' as far as the term implies. Besides, you just listed three other gentler women who are also lesbian/bi.

Also, even if she WERE a stereotype - Usually, stereotypes exist for a reason. They aren't always accurate, but they usually appeared because there ARE people who, on some level or another, fit. Not perfect, because people aren't just a one-dimensional social assumption. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[peroxidepirate.livejournal.com]

"I've never considered Daja particularly 'Butch' as far as the term implies."

Um, I think that was some terminology fail on my part. I used butch as shorthand for, "the narrative casts her as less feminine than most other women in the story."

But generally, WORD. (As usual. ;)

[boosette.livejournal.com]

The thing that bothers me isn't necessarily that Daja is butch, but that her background gives the non-insignificant appearance that she's a Bucket of Minorities -- racially in the context of our world and culturally in the context of hers, cast out by her people, non-traditionally feminine and a butch-ish lesbian with a femme-ish girlfriend*? Which I would have absolutely no problem with in a real person, and doubtless there are real people whose real selves match up with Daja insofar as anyone can match up to a fictional kids' fantasy character and I don't for a minute think that that experience in invalid in a real person.

But. Daja isn't real, and in a fictional character it just feels a bit much to me, especially after Pierce played Hide the Queers** for so many years. (IMO there is no excuse, save executive meddling, for the narration using "very good friend" as code for "lover" or even "partner", especially with Kel or Briar as narrator. I feel like it diminishes both the presence of actual queer characters in the story as well as deeply profound platonic friendship. [q_sama is my very good friend. Neither of us want to sleep with each other.]) I also have issues with her (who is straight and monogamous) making the only openly (as opposed to presumably) bisexual character in any of her works also polyamorous, and that's speaking as a definite member of one group*** and potential/questioning member of the other.

I dunno. It upsets me because it's not true to my experience.

* got to have the matched set, after all
** tvtropes link, be forewarned
*** pan vs bi is splitting hairs in this context

[peroxidepirate.livejournal.com]

"her background gives the non-insignificant appearance that she's a Bucket of Minorities"

Ohhhhhh, yes. I see that. I see that very clearly, now that you mention it. (Doesn't make me love Daja, exactly as she is, any less, and apparently I'm in the mood where I'll excuse all kinds of tropes/stereotypes on the grounds of, "It fits the characters and the story, so I'm good with it." But mileage varies so much on that. :)

"IMO there is no excuse, save executive meddling, for the narration using "very good friend" as code for "lover" or even "partner", especially with Kel or Briar as narrator. I feel like it diminishes both the presence of actual queer characters in the story as well as deeply profound platonic friendship."

SO MUCH WORD. Um, sad to say, I pretty much deliberately ignore that aspect of her work. I just hope it doesn't crop up again, now she's crossed the line of openly including queer characters in her books. (I take shameless advantage of it for shipping purposes, though. "But she said Raoul and Gary are good friends. That counts!")

"I also have issues with her (who is straight and monogamous) making the only openly (as opposed to presumably) bisexual character in any of her works also polyamorous, and that's speaking as a definite member of one group*** and potential/questioning member of the other."

Agreed. It would have been in better taste to either make it clear that it's not unusual for dedicates to be polyamorous, or to make it so Rosethorn's relationship with Crane was in the past rather than ongoing. (Plus I find one-sided polyamory sort of off-putting anyway, at least if it lacks sufficient explanation of why everyone involved is okay with this arrangement.)

Also there's some fail when Sandry listens in on Daja and Rizu's first kiss and spontaneously concludes that Daja's definitely gay and not bi. I mean, I believe that, having read the whole book, including the bit where Daja reflects on sexual orientation herself, but there's no way someone else could sort that out from witnessing one kiss.

[boosette.livejournal.com]

Doesn't make me love Daja...

Oh absolutely -- Daja is my favorite of the Circle, and her students Nia and Jory my favorites among the students and Frostpine my favorite among the teachers. (Daja's Book needs a reread so that Polyam can grow on me.) Pretty much everyone or thing that Daja touches receives a glow of love from me because she's so awesome. :) (And because I love her so much I'm extra-sensitive, I think, to narrative slights whether real or perceived.)

[cranky--crocus.livejournal.com]

I never understood that argument either. I feel like if she had picked any other character it would have been a stereotype too - or a move made clearly just to avoid a different stereotype. But the whole thing that makes non-straightness a unique minority is that we cross all cultures and stereotypes - non-straightness can be found in any sort of person, no matter how surprising. Even homophobic, let-me-do-everything-not-to-appear-queer people; oftentimes especially them.

And, just personally, I always thought Daja would make an excellent lesbian. *Grins.* I've also never found her THAT butch, which I guess just may be me being weird... Or, other personality traits that I would have loved to see in a gay character ranked over that, for me. (Though I also very much value a sense of gender androgyny, especially when compared to Sandry and Tris, who were much more overt with their femininity. )

Plus, I tend to be of the opinion that stereotypes arise from small truths. I don't think we should use them to put people down or limit them or put them in boxes, but acknowledging that they come from somewhere and don't just arise at random is also important. There's a reason most lesbians will laugh at lesbian jokes despite that they're about stereotypes: it's because we get that feeling of relating. A lot of lesbians spend their time somewhere between the polar points of the gender binary - that's just the way it is! (And I say this as an outwardly-femme person. I'm pretty close to butch inside. It'd surprise people.)

[peroxidepirate.livejournal.com]

"I feel like if she had picked any other character it would have been a stereotype too - or a move made clearly just to avoid a different stereotype."

Yes, this! This is why, any snark or criticism aside, 95% of the time I will embrace an author/creator's decision to make a character queer, no matter whom.

"I've also never found her THAT butch, which I guess just may be me being weird..."

Well, you're at least the second person to tell me that in comments, so I think it was some terminology fail on my part. I used butch as shorthand for, "the narrative casts her as less feminine than most other women in the story."

Also I have a real slippery hold on gender anyway. I think of myself as androgynous; if I had a different body type and presented myself the way I do, I wouldn't look like a girl at all. But other people seem to read me as unqualified female, which is always a little bit of a surprise to me. *shrugs*